Are the white Karens of HR and talent acquisition team the problem in the low numbers in Black and POC hiring? Are they to blame?

Using a racial or sexist slur in a job board is not appropriate or conducive to achieving more diversity in hiring practices. And contrary to your statement, people of color are not immune to being racist just because they are marginalized. All groups are capable of and do hold racial prejudices. And no one enjoys being targeted or attacked due to their age, gender or skin color.

Also, FYI—white women are NOT in power—in the grander scheme of things—white men are. Yet older and middle aged white women are being scapegoated and are disproportionately bearing the brunt of recent anger over inequality. Therefore, it is not only racially biased (if that term is more acceptable to you), but also misogynistic and ageist to target and stereotype them based on their gender & age.

What the people using the “White Karen” term don’t seem to understand is that it is divisive because it automatically puts one group on the defensive. I understand that it may feel justified, cathartic and freeing to finally be able openly and publicly bash white people—or older white women in particular (because that’s safer & they’re less likely to fight back) but at the end of the day it’s counterproductive.

This question about discriminatory hiring practices could have easily been framed without using the “ White Karen” term.

I am not and never have been a hiring manager but I have worked in personnel in a supporting role in the past. There is no doubt coded, unspoken discrimination. One major reason is because white hiring managers are terrified of racial discrimination lawsuits. Even if a person of color is fired for just cause, there is a risk of litigation due to race. Therefore, it’s easier just to circumvent that risk altogether.

Also consider that now, hiring managers research job candidates online; and if they find that applicant using the term “White Karen” all over the place, it will automatically raise a red flag. No hiring manager, of any color wants to risk hiring someone who will potentially make trouble and who from the beginning, is openly biased and presumptive of racial persecution.

Also entertain for a moment that if, for instance the shoe was on the other foot—and a black woman was the hiring manager, and she saw that white applicants were using the term “Black Shaniqua” as a generalized term for having no luck with black female hiring managers, it would be a clear indication that these individuals already have an open, racially biased contempt for them and their authority. Why should they consider hiring them or feel compelled to help them?

Also. if this questioner is concerned about discrimination, they could focus their search on black companies or businesses who have publicly pledged to hire more people of color; or perhaps create their own job or hiring coalition specifically for POC.

The fashion industry has been shrinking and disappearing for decades and was already in deep trouble prior to the pandemic and there are precious few jobs. Everyone needs to make a living, and as an older female worker I also feel disposable, marginalized and irrelevant—so the last thing I need is to be on a job board where there is condoned, open hostility based on demographics.

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I don’t really need to read this ok? Keep thinking that way hun. Have a nice life.

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Of course you don’t but just keep doing what you’re doing & see where it gets you. Good luck!

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I hope you reach a space of reading and listening to learn, rather than to react. And in this moment take into to consideration the fact that simply put this question/thread was created to generate conversation about whether the implicit bias of HR/talent acquisition teams that are typically compromised of white people impacts the lack of diversity within companies which in term plays in role in POC/BIPOC not being exposed to the same opportunities that result in the same career trajectory as our white counterparts.

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And I hope you reach a space someday to understand that a question framed in such a way diverts attention away from the importance of the topic. But of course no one here seems to want to hear that, which is unfortunate.

If the “White Karens” are so contemptible and discriminatory, it’s confounding as to why a POC would want to work for them in the first place. Why put yourself self at their mercy and give your power away to someone you distrust and don’t respect? Won’t that just be setting the stage for more disappointment?

Be the change you want to see. If people feel discriminated against—they shouldn’t do it to others. And they can start by not generalizing hiring managers in pejorative terms.

Businesses can choose for themselves whether to create diverse workplaces or not. No one is obligated to implement hiring practices based on filling racial quotas. And as others have commented, many jobs come through referrals and networking.

My very first f/t job (probably before any of you were born) was working for a renowned black designer which had a very diverse staff and most of the companies I’ve worked for in the garment business have been diverse. Fashion is now the most diverse it’s ever been but there are fewer jobs than ever and opportunities are drying up for everyone. And older workers (like myself) are far more discriminated against than younger applicants of any race. But unfortunately no matter what the hiring bias is, there is rarely any way to prove it or change it.

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Ok um you worked with a black designer obviously there probably a diverse staff because the black designer is aware of diversity and inclusion, white designers are usually not that case. Especially if you’re very old, there’s probably wasn’t a lot of opportunities to work in the industry as a poc / bipoc.

So you’ve been discriminated against based on age? Ok why don’t you hop over to the other thread about ageism your contribution to this thread has been extremely ignorant where you seem to “not see race and discrimination” and oh “black people are just complaining”…

Like I said Karen is not a slur , or a racist word…You can’t discriminate against white/ caucasian people —racism is systemic. Prejudiced? yes but not “racist”. Am i prejudice against racist white women? Of course. So, Bye Karen cus you oh sound like an ignorant person.

Please remember the #1 rule of The Schmatte, Be Nice.

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You’re exactly right, poobah. Tell ignorant people to be nice and educated for once :-). Like your choice of naming -grand poobah is actually from a pretty f***king racist and offensive comic opera from 1885, The mikado- Did you know that? So think before you speak ok?

Oh no, believe me i understand the question and the topic but I don’t think you do…And it shows in your second statement on the contemptible and discriminatory nature of “white karens”, you asked why put yourself at their mercy, as if POC have other options. More times than none white people are the gatekeepers for job opportunities, loan opportunities, in fact you name an opportunity and there’s probably a white person wielding the power for entry to that opportunity and if you need references just check history, lets say from yesterday until 1845 for starters but we can go further back in history. You ask why do we “put ourselves at their mercy” as if people walk around with signs over their heads that say “hey I’m the master of microaggressions” “I’m a racists/ageist/ableist” among other things. These are things that are discovered after you’ve entered the space. Which is why now more than ever we’re seeing a shift in people POC & ALLIES standing together and holding the mirror up to these corporations/peoples/systems face so they can take a hard look at themselves.

You mention networking and honestly most POC’s don’t know anyone that can actually connect them to the right people, which is why most hit a career ceiling, or end up casting their dreams/passion to the wayside. Again we are not afford the same experiences and opportunities as white people.

I understand some of your questions may be coming from a genuine space of wanting to understand but I need you to understand that its also coming off as you not seeing past your privilege. It is not up to POC to “be the change we want to see” WE DID NOT create these systems/environments, and it is not our responsibility to educate non-POC’s when we are literally in the information age.

You say your first job was for a black designer? Of course it was diverse, because it was a Black designer… But have you seen the faces of the CFDA? You say the companies you’ve worked for have been very diverse, if there was not equity in that diversity than it wasn’t as diverse as you think. Fashion “being the most diverse it’s ever been” does not mean you stop calling out the lack of true diversity/equity and any sign of discriminatory behavior, and to say statements like “the most diverse its ever been” speaks to my point of you not seeing past your privilege.

You end by bringing up the fact that you are an older worker, and to that I have a few responses. Yes ageism does exist in both regards towards older workers and younger workers. But to compare ageism to racism again speaks to your not seeing pass your privilege, this is not the discrimination olympics but if we were to play that game history can attest to why the two are not comparable. And lastly, you mentioned being the change you want to see? Have you tried that in your ageist experiences? Have you been the change you want to see?

Again I truly hope you reach a space of reading and listening to understand what is being said not just to react or to compare your experiences to that of the person speaking on their disenfranchisement, I don’t think you mean for it to be dismissive but it is and that just adds another unnecessary layer to try to get past when having these kinds of conversations.

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I thought it was from The Flintstones. The Grand Poobah is the head of the Masonic group that Fred and Barney were members of. Is “The Mikado” the name of the opera from 1885?

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I took the name Grand Poobah after hearing a Flintstones reference in a Beastie Boys song.

I had to look-up that supposedly racist musical from 135 years ago.

If you look the context of the production, it is very likely that what you are considering racist was actually satire designed to call-out the malfeasance of the British government. In effect, THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are claiming.

From Wikipedia:

“Setting the opera in Japan, an exotic locale far away from Britain, allowed Gilbert to satirise British politics and institutions more freely by disguising them as Japanese.”

Again, I am not going to delete your profile OR snooze your account but I would like to remind you that our rule is to Be Nice and cursing at other users (particularly the admin) is not nice.

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Not even reading your reply. Keep defending your right to call people whatever you like regardless if they tell you it’s offensive. This is why no one cares about you or your issue.

You know NOTHING & have no experience but demand that the world owes you something, Newsflash: It doesn’t!!

Not reading your reply. Keep defending your right to call people whatever you like regardless if they tell you it’s offensive. This is why no one cares about you or your issue.

You know NOTHING & have no experience but demand that the world owes you something, Newsflash: It doesn’t!!

This is why it might be better not to allow abusive language in a question in the first place.

It’s clear from the way the question was framed that this user has no intention of being respectful to anyone.

Well said from a true voice of a baby boomer gen. :slight_smile: I think after 400 years of slavery maybe the world does owe “us” a little bit after all.

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Thank you for proving my point, you can’t see past your privilege and you probably are an old white woman who is stuck in her ways. I never called anyone a Karen, you’d know that if you read. But its okay because as you said the industry is pushing you out and welcoming me in!

Can’t wait to have your job and show young impressionable minds the ways of progression and learning, from your desk!

Toodles!

I think you’re used to POC’s being quiet and stepping aside for your voice, and for you to occupy space and now that the time’s up, you’re upset. Oh well, the world’s changing.

um so you’re saying yellowface isn’t racist?Who do you think played the asian actors? Asian people?
right…Please educate yourself on the racist nuances of the play. White actors in yellow face…

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/arts/music/review-gilbert-and-sullivan-the-mikado.html?referringSource=articleShare

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Also could you please point out the cursing? oh gosh! I think I missed that part? I should maybe report you for the racist naming? :-). So, please be educated ok?

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If no one cared about my issues the landscape of fashion wouldn’t be changing for me. NO ONE cares about your issue.

I have quite a bit experience actually and come from a very educated background, and can design circles around the best of them. Again I’m up, and you’re out. Enjoy what’s left of your career, and maybe you’ll learn or you won’t and will still be pushed out.