Are the white Karens of HR and talent acquisition team the problem in the low numbers in Black and POC hiring? Are they to blame?

[Curious]

As an HR Professional, with 20+ years of experience, having worked up to exec level from assistant, that’s also a POC, it’s not just all on us HR folks. General perception is that we have absolute authority on “hiring & firing”. Not true at all. We don’t. We can lead the horse to water but since they’re the ones working with these individuals on a daily basis, they have final say, not HR. We have more authority on the title, compensation, benefits, etc rather than the actual person selected for the role. My approach with comp has always been based on market rate for that role, not what we have “budgeted” (finance often sets these budgets, and often w/o HR, cue eyetoll) or what they made in previous positions. Actually love that salary history questions are banned in NYS and many other places, as I’m a firm believer that comp should be based on what you’re worth in the market and commensurate with experience level.

Agency recruiters, they work off of commission, the more $ you make, the higher their commission. Because of the commission component, most will fight hard for higher comp since that means they get a bigger commission. Downside is that many don’t care about you or your career and have no qualms placing you in a position that isn’t a fit for the check.

It is on all of us, but most importantly, as a candidate, it is so important to think about what kind of questions you can ask to get an idea about culture and how they treat people.

[Bhans]

Lack of diversity is something I bring up in every conversation I have with HR. I recently suggested that they use Jopwell which is a recruiting service for POC. Hoping that they will be more dedicated to inclusion and diversity in the office, but will definitely keep having the conversation and demanding better from them.

[Belledujour]

Thank you—I am in total agreement. Using the term “White Karens” is hostile & a non-starter.

[coolgurl]

If you don’t like the phase “karen” in the topic title and feel that you can start another thread with a better suited title, -by all means please create one! We should have more topics on diversity and race in “Diversity” section on SCHMATTE- Have you created any yet? If not then write your own thread /topic on an diversity issue with a title that you feel more “suitable” -This was purposrly used as in intention to spark a debate.

[Tandy]

I honestly don’t think it is HR. To be honest, most of HR employees I have met were BIPOC women…

I think the problem are the team leaders (execs, directors and or managers) which are often white themselves.

I am white and in a director position. I try to only focus on the experience and education of candidates, but it is hard to not include race in the equation. In my career (10 years) I probably hired 80% of BIPOC vs 20% Whites.

I figured that being i a place of power, I had the tools to elevate other communities around me, I sometimes feel guilty and question myself as if I was discriminating people because they were white though?

It is a very hard one.

[Belledujour]

I just joined—mere moments before commenting & this was the first topic I saw. The “Karen” trope is overused & counterproductive to achieving “diversity”. Nothing positive or empowering will be accomplished by stereotyping and insulting other groups.

So thanks for the suggestion, but I will decide if & when to make contributions—or if I will even remain here—if this is going to be yet another space for angry race baiting & trolling and not the career discussion forum I thought I was joining. But I do recommend having a moderator here to flag inflammatory language so that this can be a safe and welcoming space for everyone.

[grandpoobah]

For the record, I feel that the usage of “White Karens” to be in bad taste.

That being said, we did not flag or delete the string because it is important that people see and discuss differing opinions and viewpoints.

[Kajagoogoo]

The irony of this string is that the originator of this string is using racism to complain about racism.

[rocket10]

I think what the designer of Brother Vellies, Aurora James is trying to do with regards to diversity in fashion would be a good starting point for fashion recruiters/ hiring managers. She’s trying to get retailers like Nordstrom to reflect the black population 13-15% in the US, as it relates to their black vendor assortment, which I think at the time (shortly after George Floyd’s death) was only at .08%.

The 13 -15 % Rule would be a good way of at least trying to address the lack of diversity in the fashion industry. WWD has been really going deep into the diversity issues within fashion, and blacks are starting to look to their own to buy from, or at the least from companies that hire blacks for high level positions and show them in advertising. Ultimately, companies may find themselves, soon, aggressively seeking black talent, if they want blacks’ spending power back (which is significant).

[7thAveSecrets]

Another contributing factor NOT the fault of “white karens” in HR is that Black and Hispanic woman are much more likely than White or Asian women to have children in their teens. Black and Hispanic teen birth rates are twice that of whites and 3 times that of Asians.

The fashion industry is 80% female. When large percentages of female minority groups are having children as teenagers, they are in effect, taking themselves out of the labor market. It only stands to reason that they are going to be less represented in the industry.

Is this the only reason? Of course not.
Do Blacks and POCs face challenges that other ethnic groups don’t? Yes.
Is it fair to blame HR for everything? No, not at all.

https://www.cdc.gov/teenpregnancy/about/index.htm

[Mofodie]

Using teen birth rates to talk about the issues with in hiring… This along with your other post says a lot about who you are what you think.

We are taking about the job pool and talent that is not being properly and hired or represented within companies. The direct link to those with the skills and ability to preform said job and those actually obtaining those positions. End of story. Let’s focus on the talent who can be hired and isn’t. Let’s focus on the the difference between their reality vs others. To bring up teen birth stats that have nothing to do with the discrimination faced by these groups is appalling.

[7thAveSecrets]

If Blacks represent 13% of the population, a simplistic view would be that blacks should make-up 13% of fashion company employment. We know there are a lot of other factors involved is these issues otherwise, the NBA would look very different.

If you start with 13% and then adjust by college graduation rates, teenage pregnancies, etc… you are going to have a number that is less than 13%. I’m not saying there isn’t bias in fashion industry hiring but it isn’t fair to blame white women for everything.

[Mofodie]

If you could get out of your own way you’d see I’m agreeing with the fact the number won’t be the over all population amount. Like I said we are looking at the current job pool. CURRENT POC THAT HAVE GRADUATED WITH THE SKILLS FOR THE JOB VS HOW MANY OF THEM ARE ACTUALLY HIRED. White teens girls kill themselves at higher rates than black girls. Do I need to add that into the debate say to why their numbers in some industries is not a match to population no. You are still bringing up stats that have nothing to do with the topic. Highly inappropriate and tactless. Also the topic is POC and blacks… anyone not white is PERSON OF COLOR. Asian. Indian, Hispanics are POC. So even your awful use of date isn’t correct for the discussion as you are leaving out other groups.

[7thAveSecrets]

…but other minorities are NOT under represented in the fashion industry. Asians and Hispanics are actually over-represented compared to their percentage of the population. Because of this, POC is not an accurate description.

I shared a link showing that blacks graduate from the major fashion colleges are a lower rate than other groups. That is another contributing factor to being less than 13% of the fashion industry workforce.

Another issue that chips away at being less than 13% of the workforce is personal networks. It is really hard for people to get a job, start a business, get a loan, etc… without personal networks. If you you don’t have family or friends working in the fashion industry you are at a disadvantage. -again, not the fault of white women in HR.

This isn’t some big conspiracy.

[coolgurl]

“Karen” is not a racist term, it is not equivalent to racist terms used against POC or to BIPOC. Racism is systemic and reverse racism is a myth. “Thus, racial prejudice can indeed be directed at white people (e.g., white people can’t dance) but is not considered racism because of the systemic relationship of power.”

Do you understand?

[coolgurl]

The purpose of this post was to see how people’s viewpoints on hiring paratices in this particular industry and as a starter of the topic was a question whether not white women being in power (HR) positions are the cause. Clearly I am
open to diffrebt answer which is why I asked the community. this inspiration was based on an article I read and a post on linkedin regarding white womens in HR positions and how they influence hiring.

“Thus, racial prejudice can indeed be directed at white people (e.g., white people can’t dance) but is not considered racism because of the systemic relationship of power.”

-Racism in the workplace? Call in HR! But what if HR is part of the problem?

HR usually take the lead with D&I initiatives but all too often these efforts are limited to gender or LGBTQ with race lagging behind.

There exists an uncomfortableness with tackling racism/wilful blindness that the problem even exists.

I raise some of the challenges in People Management magazine @

https://bit.ly/2N57mBo & HR magazine @ https://bit.ly/30ROaPs

I also share thoughts alongside a number of thinkers & leaders in this space (listed in the comments) in a number of articles available at https://lnkd.in/gKJKW6e, https://lnkd.in/gJXjF5Z and https://bit.ly/2ADAbCr

HR So White? Possibly. We need to stop talking about race and actively do more. We can not wait for the ethnicity pay gap and I’m tired of hearing BAME talent is not out there. We exist & were designed to stand out, not blend in.

We also need to stop asking what is HR going to do to fix this issue. We need to ask what are WE doing right now to address the issue in our capacity as HR professionals in the workplace?

[Mofodie]

The fact that people don’t understand the term Karen isn’t racist is ironic. Not all women who happen to be white are Karen’s. The term is about women who happen to be white inserting themselves into situations that are not of their concern. Their need to be pseudo enforces of laws and more often than not make up rules/laws to get someone to change their behavior is what qualifies them to be a Karen. Karen’s are highly offend by the slightest things and often overreact to small and trivial situations. They scream, cry and use other behaviors not becoming of a sane adult when dealing with said situations. These needs usually comes at the expense of people that don’t share their same skin color. Do I agree with everything in this post? No. But Karen is not a blanket term for all women who happen to be white. Saying Karen is a racist term is something a true Karen would say.

[coolgurl]

This is a career discussion. If you haven’t noticed most people’s comments are about hiring practices.

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/diversity-in-hr-is-it-really-a-white-female-profession/

HR is socially known as a white female profession-unfortunately… so why does it insult you so much to question the possibility of their influences in hiring practices on POC and BIPOC? You can find many articles on it so where the trolling happening?

I think this is a pretty relevant question worth asking. Flagging and deleting it at this point would be bad because that would oppressing many opinions expressed in this thread. Discussions on race never comes with out some heat.

3rd, Karen and diversity aren’t directly related to on another in the way you’re explaining it … And how is karen insulting? I think you’re confusing the term “karen” targeting all white womens, what I’m talking specifically about are white womens who are :

Karen; stereotype:
-ill natured
-racist (from a spectrum of usually good intending people that say “I don’t see race” to real racist supremacist)
-are not proactive in building diversity
-are not productive in making a better place for Bipoc
-Use their privilege at the expense of others
-entitlement complex

Is this you?

This list sounds like a racist white women. A specific type of white women , Are they in HR? Maybe? Or maybe not? Which why I asked.

Is this a type of person we really want in our industry? We have a name for them, Karen…because we would hope that these group of women would get their privilege checked and to be educated about diversity and contribution. And if you’re not a “karen” then you’re probably an ally-hopefully.

Should I have wrote, “Are racist white women affecting hiring practices for bipoc?etc etc …::”

but Karen is funnier so there we go. It isn’t “infammatory” it isn’t “racist” because like I said racism ia systematic and you can’t be “racist” against white / european people group because of the systemic relationship of power. When backed with power, prejudice results in acts of discrimination and oppression against groups or individuals.

So I am against karens not all white womens. Do you understand? Because you seem to be struggling with the Karen concept.

[Mofodie]

In my 1st comment brought up the issue of personal networks. You read what you want to read… So you could have just agreed with that post instead of your tacky use of static’s. Oooh wait sickle cell adversely affects African Americans… maybe you should add that to your calculations too. For the millionth time we are talking about the amount of said people who are graduating with the skills for the job and direct difference of those in the positions. Whoever didn’t graduate with the skills isn’t a part of the conversation. Just like in other comments I’ve seen from you… you are bring up issues that have no bearing in the topic. What about the number of those with the skill to fill the job and the drop off of those hired can’t you grasp??

[BeKind]

I figured out the secret on 7th ave. It’s that you like to miss the point, and use statistics that in fact do not apply to the questions brought/discussion at hand. Its unfortunate that you’ve led the pack in regards to divisiveness. And this is one of the biggest problems in the fashion industry. Whenever a person of color specifically a Black person calls out an issue or simply poses a question about an issue at large, non-black people, often times then not White people take it upon themselves to present so called “facts and figures” to “support” their baseless arguments because its so hard for them to just swallow the ugly truth about who/what they (either a person, company, governing body, etc) really are. I mean and quite frankly we see this outside of fashion too, just look at all of the things we continue to hear and see come from 1600 Pennsylvania ave from 45’s lips to our screens. I just wish that there was more ownership by White people both active participants and those that passively watch, the actions of their counterparts and the impact it continuously has not just on society as a whole but on People of Color and their inability to progress through society at the same rate that you all have BECAUSE of the generational indoctrination you all have passed on that has resulted in your implicit bias, that was rooted in baseless facts that you were able to make law because you and only you were able to participate in what was law and who it applied to. So 7thave here’s a secret for you instead of reading to react because you probably feel like the shoe fits, why don’t you acknowledge the fact of the matter is the question posed bu @coolgurl is a valid one because, as a human regardless of race/color/creed you have implicit bias, and that can and will impact how you view people/situations, etc and as an HR person if you are White your implicit bias can start simply by looking at two candidates who are equally yoked and result in you selecting Sarah for interview or Yolanda, because IMPLICITLY you have judgements about who/what Yolanda is and who/what Sarah is. There is unlearning to be done BUT that cannot happen if you fail to acknowledge that you have implicit and sometimes explicit bias ,and that is a major contributor, to the low numbers of Black/POC hiring not just in fashion but in just about every industry.