You know, someone has to be pretty nuts to look far enough back to make Grand Poobah racist . . . poor Fred Flintstone and the Water Buffalo lodge . . . Coolgurl obviously is carrying around a massive chip on her shoulder that makes her not so cool.
1 Like
Definitely the antithesis of “cool” and I think that user has been banned, thankfully. And since she started this thread, I don’t understand why they don’t just take it down. It’s a can of worms and no one needs this right now.
lol thanks - literal insanity, I can’t engage further with these folks. no wonder we’re in the apocalypse 
god forbid you try to read a text by a BIPOC for reference!?
1 Like
Colonialism and racism are the foundation upon which all of the “pressing matters” you have to deal with were based. For instance, the fires that are destroying the west coast can be traced back to the ignorant genocide and disregard of the Native American people who effectively lived on and maintained those lands for centuries… If you’d consider reading and learning from the people who you are dismissing, perhaps you would understand - but you refuse to and thus continue to perpetuate the same problems. White fragility is real, and you are literally displaying it, so you don’t need to put it in quotes. White people freaking out when POC call out their racist behavior, thus gaslighting them without actually ever listening to their grievances, is the reason we haven’t progressed in this realm in decades, and continue to run in circles on the same topic. For instance, does being called a white person make you feel uncomfortable? It’s because you’re so used to being considered “normal” and “the majority” that you feel uncomfortable being singled out, the same way BIPOC are singled out everyday for the way they look. It’s an exercise in discomfort. Consider reading some texts on the subject by BIPOC before speaking further about issues you haven’t even bothered to learn about. This country will soon be a majority minority population split, and y’all won’t be able to run away from these issues forever.
Context? Right. No need for context. The fact that you seem to believe that somehow only Blacks face racism, from Whites is comical. Very few people actually have “power,” and if it’s your position that all Whites are somehow in a superior position, and look down upon POC, I suggest you spend more time introspectively, because that shortcoming is yours.
1 Like
First of all, I am fully aware of history and don’t need you to school me on colonialism. In fact it’s extremely naive to presume that just because you might have recently learned about this in school, that people twice your age who’ve been living in the shadow of segregation and the Civil Rights Movement aren’t aware of or sympathetic to these issues.
Secondly, no one is disputing the racism and inequality that people of color have been subjected to and continue to suffer. But what you and others who use the “Karen” term are failing to understand, is the basic adherence to the Golden Rule, which is applicable to people of all races, and that is “Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You”.
If you don’t like being disparaged or targeted based on your race–don’t do it to others. If people of color make it known that something white people say to or about them is offensive or insulting; then it’s not for a white person to argue that POC have it all wrong and have misconstrued it and tell them to “check themselves”.
Likewise, if older white women are telling you they take offense to being called a “Karen”–and the definition is expanding daily to be a pretty general term for this demographic–then perhaps you shouldn’t use it in this type of forum, unless your intent is to continue offending them, which apparently, it is.
And if that’s the case, then don’t expect them to tolerate it and certainly, don’t bother asking them for a job. It’s no more your place to tell white women how to feel than it’s their place to tell POC how to feel; and to insist otherwise is just absurd.
What the people complaining about “Karens” also don’t seem to understand, is that it is divisive; and if they’re trying to garner support or make a case for more opportunity and diversity, it has the opposite effect. There are a lot of liberal older white women who are extremely sympathetic and supportive of BLM.
However, if you continually scapegoat them solely based on their age, gender and race–you will lose their support. No one is obligated to put up with abuse or to support you in spite of it. And no one will care about “checking their privilege” if they’re being disrespected and ridiculed. It doesn’t work that way.
And if I was a hiring manager and saw “White Karen” all over a candidate’s social media, it sends the message that this person is a liability risk and will most likely be a disruptive, toxic employee; and there’s just too many over-qualified, talented people out there in need of a job to hire a known agitator.
I understand that you have a lot of rage and frustration, and in the short term it may feel good to take it out on someone; but if you know anything about colonialism then surely you understand that white women born in the last 50 years are not responsible for it; nor do they have any real power to make the needed systemic changes.
And if you had any knowledge of women’s history, you would know that many of these “white Karens” were only making half of what men were making when they started their careers–and still only make 80 cents on the dollar; and until very recently, they’ve had to endure constant, humiliating sexual harassment day in and day out if they even wanted to keep their jobs. Garment business included–and I speak from experience.
AND only very recently did women of any race have any political positions–and they’re still the minority in our government. Your generation takes a lot for granted and has NO CLUE of what it was like for previous generations because you didn’t live through it.
White women may be privileged compared to WOC–but it’s been far from a cake walk. I recommend watching “Mad Men” to get an idea of the mentality and abuse that the “Karens” lived with until very recently–and then come back and tell me how privileged they are.
Bottom line, the “Karens” are not the real problem here and it would behoove you to make them your allies and not your enemies. These are the very women that fought for YOUR right to more equal pay and to be able to do your job without being groped or harassed, and to be able to prosecute and be protected from sexual assault and domestic violence. And these women are also the mothers and grandmothers of many BIPOC.
Using divisive language only sets us all back as women and only serves to exacerbate racial tension. Don’t cut off your nose to spite your face.
Lastly, paragraphs are your friend–I recommend learning to use them!
1 Like
Yeah its, just sad that it seems some how this became a dialogue fueled by gaslighting and continuous disparaging of people’s experience. So many lesson’s could’ve been learned. Oh well, still other great insightful conversations happening on here!
1 Like
Your experience / persecution complex doesn’t give you the right to be disrespectful or to make any demands on anyone.
No one owes you anything. If there are “more important” threads then stop defending your right to use hateful, racist rhetoric on this one for over a month now. You’re beating a dead horse.
Go run for office and be the change you want to see in the world!
And note how the mature, balanced, female politicians of color aren’t using the “Karen” trope? Watch and learn.
Well, you clearly are not aware of history from the angle of BIPOC historians and writers, or we would not be having this discussion. (We’ll get back to your own mistaken presumptions about my age and education later.) The whitewashed textbooks of our problematic educational system are part of the problem. White women may not be responsible for colonialism, but they are deeply complicit in perpetuating certain aspects of colonialist legacy by maintaining problematic power dynamics and elements of racism (often to favor themselves over BIPOC).
You are simply digging yourself deeper into this hole by using white feminism as a defense. There’s been so much written on this…sources at the bottom. The feminist movements you speak of owe a great deal to women of color who were largely written out of the media narrative and then history books in favor of white women who were more palatable. The outcomes of these movements prioritized goals and opportunities for white women above women of color.
Nobody has ever taken the issues women face for granted or suggested that white women have it easy or that it’s a “cakewalk.” But your arguments are centered on white perspectives of feminism and refuse to consider intersectionality. Privilege is a spectrum, and a white woman is closer in power to a white man than to a woman of color. You can see this easily by considering the leadership of most fashion companies. The C Suite might be all white men, but there are usually some women at the Director level. They’re mostly white.
This is because, for decades, white feminists have prioritized their own advancement, rather than utilizing their own privilege to push for the advancement of women of color. It’s hard being a woman in the workforce. But it’s MUCH harder to be a woman of color than it is to be a white woman. We all know the 80 cents statistic. We read about it, we hear it on the news - it’s common knowledge. But what about the fact that Black women earn 66 cents on the dollar and Hispanic women earn 58 cents? There is a tendency for white women to prioritize the issues they face and use this a some sort of defense mechanism to prove their struggle. But women of color face these same issues, deal with this same struggle, AND deal with racism…
White women are afforded a significant amount of privilege that they need to start accepting and utilizing to create change, instead of trying to run away from it and pretend they don’t have any. You might not be able to singlehandedly change the system, but you as an individual have much more influence in creating change than I do. You have, for instance, a much higher chance of being taken seriously and a much lower chance of losing your job for filing a complaint about witnessing racist behavior - compared to me filing a complaint about experiencing racist behavior. This is privilege. You have more than me. And it can be used to help create systemic change.
Many activists would argue that Karens ARE a large part of “the real problem.” The term Karen was popularized out of anguish and a need to quickly identify the type of woman who was likely to call the cops on an innocent Black person. In MANY recent cases, this has been white women of a certain age. In one of the most famous recently - the Cooper case - it was the LIBERAL, FEMINIST white woman, in Manhattan. Being liberal and feminist has no bearing on your ability to also be racist. You can be liberal and support BLM and still be racist! “Racist” is not a bad word. We are all a little racist. We are all byproducts of a racist system, so it is inevitable.
Taking offense at the term Karen is, ironically, a key characteristic of the stereotype. It is likely tied to being similarly offended if someone called you racist - white fragility. Getting defensive when someone calls out racist behavior is problematic. Partly because it gaslights the person who called you out (likely a BIPOC), but primarily because it prevents any productive work from happening. It would be much more productive to interrogate your behavior to better understand why it was racist and how you could change it moving forward.
If you continue to get offended and never actually interrogate your behavior, it simply continues…as it has for decades…perpetuating racism.
Oh right, and you also made some presumptions about me. I’m pretty sure that I’m a lot older than you think I am. I also didn’t “just learn about it,” I actually completed a Masters degree on the intersections of colonialism, racism, and the contemporary fashion design industry, from one of the top three design schools in the world. That was after completing an undergraduate degree from an Ivy League university. That was all more than a decade ago, and since then I’ve also been published on the topic in leading fashion media. (Maybe don’t judge people based on how they write in anonymous forums late at night?) Thankfully, my career at this point is not really dependent on people like you as decision makers - but I am incredibly empathetic towards the many young BIPOC who continue to deal with this type of covert racism all the time, as I did in my early career.
On White Feminism:
On the Term Karen:
General Reading on How You Can Do Better:
Ugh. So many excuses.
The reality is that BIPOC participation in the fashion industry is in direct correlation with out of wedlock births. Current stats from the CDC show that roughly 70% of black kids are born into households that DO NOT have a father.
Why is this important?
Children from fatherless homes are much less likely to go to college (as evidenced in the fashion schools post above) than kids with two parent households.
Going further, children from fatherless homes are much more likely to participate in criminal activity, much more likely to be substance abusers, much more likely to be victims of child abuse, much more likely to be obese (harder to work in fashion as a fatty), much more likely to be in a gang, much more likely to be incarcerated and much more likely to perform poorly in school.
Are there exceptions to these issues, of course BUT looking at the raw data, black mothers are doing their children a disservice by starting a family without being married.
…and before you chalk this up to colonialism or the remnants of slavery, prior to the welfare programs of the late 1960’s, the percentage of white kids and black kids born out of wedlock were roughly the same at about 10%.
Quit blaming everyone else. Fix the family, fix the problem.
1 Like
Thank you for your detailed response and links. I’m very aware of the white-washing of history and feminism; and I regret that you believe only people of color have this awareness or education.
It seems that no matter what, you are intent on blaming and shaming white women and have selectively chosen countless biased narratives to support your case. And if you cannot see how the “Karen” trope is hostile, divisive and racist there is no point debating this further.
But I do have something to say about the Amy Cooper incident–since you brought it up; because I’m sick of the innocent victim “black while birding” narrative being promulgated. What Amy Cooper did was inexcusable. However, by Mr. Cooper’s own account, he approached her dog and threatened to give him a treat if she didn’t put a leash on him. Since he was neither the police nor animal control, it was not his place to approach this woman or try to impose the leash rules or his will on her. And I fully believe he would not have done this if she were a woman of color or and especially not if she was a man. So I think his motives–even if subconscious, were also sexist and racist.
And conveniently, we only have an account of Mr. Cooper’s word and what happened before he started recording. If a strange man approached me alone in a secluded area and started trying to engage my animal I’d be pretty upset and might have also called the police. Both parties were wrong in this situation.
Bottom line, people of color are equally if not more racist than white people. I’ve been targeted, abused and treated differently because of my race when people of color have had the power or opportunity. But conversely, I have gone out of my way and overcompensated in service to people of color out of white guilt. Racism is a two way street. I do not trust fair treatment by other races any more than you do.
The difference between us is that you seem to feel entitled to your racism and justified in trolling older white women with the “Karen” trope; because it’s now fully sanctioned by white guilt in the media which somehow makes it socially acceptable. Meanwhile, there’s no mention of the white men who make all the decisions, and who’ve lorded over everyone else for centuries. This is called SCAPEGOATING. And I’m here to tell you it’s NOT OK.
And for as much progress is being made by BLM, racial tension will only get worse and not better–if it’s OK for one group to claim protected status and be openly hostile and racist towards the other.
1 Like
You’re funny, but you miss-quoted me, it’s “great insightful conversations” .
I see you read to respond not to understand. I never disrespected anyone, never used disrespectful language, not once. Never used hateful racist rhetoric. Never called anyone a Karen or anything else for that matter. Except privileged and last I checked thats not racist rhetoric.
People’s experiences are what demand the changes we want to see in the world, because experiences are rooted in both fact and perspective.
Disparaging them is what blocks progress.
Girl what? Your commentary on this thread reeks of cultural and racial biases. Family dynamic or not…there are PLENTY of black designers in this industry that have college degrees that are capable of doing good work and being hired. The thing is…this industry is mostly white and a lot of HR or director level individuals don’t make ANY effort to hire designers of different background and cultures. Point blank period. Believe me, the talent is there but the effort to give minorities jobs in an industry that is built on whiteness is not there at all.
If you want more perspective on the black experience in this industry, check out this article because you clearly need to educate yourself before you make broad statements like that.
2 Likes
@Keepingitreal, did you even read the article? Roughly 10% of designers who presented at fashion week were black? Considering that African Americans represent 13% of the population, that’s actually really good. With respect to models, over 15% of the designers used African American models; that is an over-representation compared to the general population.
I get it, this is emotional for a lot of people and facts can’t change the way someone “feels”. To be clear, I am an ally and my comments have been meant to let BIPOCs know that it isn’t ALL racism and it isn’t a one-sided issue.
Do you realize, white institutions, law making and enforcement of these laws by white lawmakers are at the root of this statistic you’re so happily toting as if it’s some sort Ace in the hole? And guess whats at the root of that… you guessed it racism. It is so deeply woven into this countries foundation and history, and continues to be perpetuated to this day.
Children who are on a single parent income, an income that is more than likely allowing the family to just scrape by because of the severe pay disparity in this country, also rooted in racism and sexism, CANNOT afford to go to school.
It’s not as simple as “fix the family fix the problem” It starts with restructuring the entire system layer by layer, because at its core the system was built to protect and uplift white people from who are not white while simultaneously working tirelessly to make sure that people who weren’t white were not allowed in the lawmaking process or upkeep at all costs. for almost 200 years. And restructuring is something people of color have been fighting at since its inception, having open dialogue about peoples experiences to gain understanding is how WE ALL play a part in helping evoke change. Not disparaging them.
1 Like
Exactly! Point blank period. I agree with you 100%.
Girl bye, I can tell by your recent comment that you are not an ally and that you clearly do not understand that the root of the problem of all this is racism. The fashion industry was literally built off the backs of black people and it’s a shame that black designers has to work twice as hard to get A SINGLE INCH that white designers get. Look at every single big fashion company in NYC and tell me a single C-suite executive (that’s not a D&I role) that’s black. Although black people make up 13% of the population, there are forces within the industry (lack of money, social issues, lack of exposure) at hand that stop black designers from even being in the same realm as white designers.
1 Like
The “misquote” was my interpretation of what you said. We’re going around in circles here and it is exhausting.
You may not use the “Karen” term but you seem to be defending the right of others to use it. And if you notice, instead of drawing responses that addressed the issue of discrimination, the entire focus of this thread shifted to the racist and offensive way the topic was raised.
And instead of acknowledging that it’s offensive, all you and others have done is insist that it shouldn’t be and give cockamamie theories as to why it’s OK to racially troll the very people you’re demanding more opportunity from.
There is absolutely no logic to this!
If you or other people of color want your “experience” to be heard and validated you need to be able to afford others the same courtesy and respect. And until you do, nothing will change. Don’t be fooled by lip service in the media. We’re all being gaslighted.
Many, many years ago I worked for arguably, one of the most famous black designers ever. It was my very first job out of high school.
And out of 50+,employees, maybe (2) of them were black. It was a black owned company and yet he only hired white executives and white designers—some of whom are very big names today. He wasn’t in charge of hiring the sales, production and support staff; but being that it was his company, he certainly could have requested more diversity. But why he didn’t, we’ll never know; as he’s been dead for over 30 years.
I’m not going to try and analyze the ills of the industry, but there definitely needs to be more designers of color; and perhaps they can be instrumental in creating more diversity. Expecting a white dominated industry to do this is like going to a hardware store expecting to find orange juice.